A modern day florist's shop in London.SKIP THIS PART if you don't want any help in figuring things out: it will be helpful to know the following. ELIZABETH is Mrs. Dalloway's daughter. MISS KILMAN is a friend of Elizabeth's of whom Mrs. Dalloway disapproves. MISS PYM is the shopwoman in the flower shop. SEPTIMUS WARREN SMITH is a major character in the book. His wife, LUCREZIA, and he are out and about.
DO THIS PART: address one or both of these questions. If you can't come up with an asnwer you're confident about, try to come up with an answer you're not confident of.
1. Mrs. D. is the protagonist (main character, heroine) of the book. Miss Kilman functions as a kind of antagonist, the person with whom the protagonist does battle, literal or figurative. Can you explain how Miss Kilman funtions in this section as an antagonist?
2. Back on p. 7, Mrs. D. recalls Peter having made her cry. Can you see why she was crying?
22 comments:
In this section, Miss Kilman is so negatively expressed though the eyes of her apparent "enemy" (Mrs. Dalloway). She refers to Kilman as a "brutal monster" who, at any moment, could make Dalloway actually feels physical pain in her spine. Kilman gets described as being on of those horribly annoying people who tries to make others feel bad for her ("...how poor she was, who rich you were.."). She goes into so much detail about her personality, her body, her clothes, etc, that the reader receives the clear implication that this woman and Dalloway do not go well together. According to Dalloway, Kilman is pure evil.
What is interesting is that once Dalloway intimately goes into detail of how much she detests Kilman (for almost 2 complete pages), she ends her thoughts with "Nonsense, nonsense!" where she will then proceed on with her trip to the florists. This adds onto what people were saying yesterday with her incredible ability to let things go and move on to something else. Her train of thought goes so deeply into one subject, but then all gets suddenly released.
I agree with Audrey. I also wanted to bring up why Mrs. Dalloway may have cried because of Peter. On the very page where she is describing her hatred for Miss Kilman (page 12), she talks about how much she detests having to hate someone the way she hates Miss Kilman. "... and made all the pleasure in beauty, in friendship, in being well, in being loved and making her home delightful rock, quiver, and bend as if indeed there were a monster grabbing at the roots, as if the whole panoply of content were nothing but self love! this hatred!"
Mrs. Dalloway appears to be the kind of person who hates hatred. In other words, she doesn't like to be angry at people unless she has to. Perhaps that is why Peter made her cry, because she hated to be angry at anyone, but he made it unavoidable. (Just a guess, but this passage caught my attention...)
I do agree with Audrey on the fact that Miss Kilman is painted with very negative language and we are not meant to think well of her after reading almost two pages about what terrible things she does to you. I think that Julie is also correct in saying that Mrs. Dalloway likes to avoid hatred because she says about Miss Kilman, “it was not her one hated but the idea of her.” This shows that Mrs. Dalloway would not enjoy the presence of anyone that acted like Miss Kilman, not just that she thinks of Miss Kilman as a monster.
I do disagree with Audrey in the last part of her comment when she mentioned the way that Mrs. Dalloway stopped her thought chain about Miss Kilman. I believe that the line “Nonsense, nonsense!” indicates that Mrs. Dalloway is trying to consciously stop her train of thought. We have not seen this before in the previous reading because usually her thoughts flow straight from one to the next; however here she makes a conscious effort to change the subject of her thoughts.
I think Miss Kilman can be seen as an antagonist because she makes Mrs. Dalloway into a person that repulses herself. This creates an internal struggle for Mrs. Dalloway because her own thoughts disgust her. Mrs. Dalloway doesn’t seem to fight with Miss Kilman; however she fights with the thoughts that Miss Kilman brings up.
I agree with Audrey.
Ms. Kilman functions as an antagonist in the book in the way that she is portrayed as someone who is really pessimistic and maybe because Kilman is compared to Dalloway not directly but she's portrayed as awful through the eyes of Mrs. Dalloway although this may not be true.
In thinking about the second question, I went back and reread page 7. She talks about thinking about him "without the old bitterness; which perhaps was the reward of having cared for people..." Then later in the page, "How he scolded her! How they argued!...she had the makings of a perfect hostess, he said."
We've talked in class about how Virginia Woolf rebelled a bit against her aristocratic, proper upbringing. I find it very interesting that she includes something in Mrs. Dalloway's character of being upset at being told that she would "marry a Prime Minister and stand at the top of a staircase; the perfect hostess he called her (and she had cried over it in her bedroom)..." Maybe Woolf painted the character of Mrs. Dalloway as sharing the same distaste she did for the aristocratic upbringing. Also, the line about bitterness resulting from caring for people is interesting as (in the reading tonight), she observes the relationships (loving and not) of others. I think perhaps this could be foreshadowing or a bit of insight on the character in that she could be someone who becomes very emotionally invested and ends up regretting it.
(Laurel here)
1. Miss Kilman functions in this section as an antagonist, not only in that she is someone who Mrs. Dalloway does not seem to like in the slightest, but also because she brings out a part of Mrs. Dalloway that she seems to want to keep out of herself. She brings up a strong feeling of hatred, somewhat unrelated to who Miss Kilman actually is (for it was not her one hated but the idea of her, which undoubtedly had gathered in to itself a great deal that was not Miss Kilman"), as Mrs. Dalloway acknowledges, but the feeling is nevertheless there, and infringes upon Mrs. Dalloway's happiness. "never to be content quite, or quite secure, for at any moment the brute would be stirring, this hatred, which, especially since her illness, had power to make her feel scraped, hurt in her spine; gave her physical pain, and made all pleasure in beauty, in friendship, in being well, in being loved and making her home delightful rock, quiver, and bend as if indeed there were a monster grubbing at the roots, as if the whole panoply of content were nothing but self love! this hatred!" (Woolf, 12).
Catherine I totally agree about what you said about how Miss Kilman makes her disgusted with herself, and I think it extends to bringing up inner feelings with regards to other parts of Mrs. Dalloway's life that she doesn't let herself deal with, other feelings of anger and hatred, and Miss Kilman seems to be a sort of vent, from which these feelings can come out.
It is very easy to see that Miss Kilman is the angtagonist because of how and how much Mrs. Dalloway talks about her. She describes anything being better than Miss Kilman on page 11, "Still, better poor Grizzle, than Miss Kilman; better distemper and tar and all the rest of it than sitting mewed in a stuffy bedroom with a prayer book! Better anything." Clarrisa describes her hatred or disgust of Miss Kilman on page 11, "So insensitive was she, dressed in a green mackintosh coat, Year in year out she wore that coat; she perspired; she was never in the room five minutes wihtout making you feel her superiority, your inferiority; how poor she was; how rich you were..."
Then Clarrissa goes on to describe Miss Kilman deeper in detail as a huge pessimist and almost the opposite of Clarrissa's point of view of the world when she is out and about walking. On page 12, "For at any moment the brute would be stirring, this hatred, which, especially since her illness, had power to make her feel scraped, hurt in her spine; gave physical pain, and made all pleasure in beauty, in friendship, in being well, in being loved and making her home delightful rock, quiver, and bend as if indeed there were a monster grubbing at the roots, as if the whole panoply of content were nothing but self love! This hatred!"
Mrs. Dalloway gets more and more intense, thinking and exclaiming in her head about her hatred for Miss Kilman. She gets so intense and angry that she could not handle her anger and has to stop herself from thinking by saying "nonsense, nonsense."
I would just like to say that Mrs Dalloway is very earthy, meaning she loves nature, and is both fascinated and delighted by it.
I have a question to ask: on page 13 the word her is in italics in the second to last paragraph i was just wondering why that was so.
In regard to the second question, I found Mrs. Dalloway's perspective on marriage as a clue to why this distaste for having hatred, or rather confrontation, within her life, or within her own emotional capacity.
On page seven, after the passage of "(she had cried over it in her bedroom).." is the passage that starts with "So she would still find herself arguing ..." and contains the line: "she had been right - and she had too - not ot marry him. For in marriage a little licence, a little independence there must be between people living together day in day out in the same house, which Richard gave her, and she him."
What I can extract from this passage, as best as I can, is that for Clarissa marriage is restraint or "a little independence", which she says her and Richard gave each other. This idea of having to convince herself - "she had to be right" - that refusing marriage to Richard shows that inside her is this perfect hostess that Richard claims she could be; she does want a family, or at least, the security that comes with marriage, for as described, Clarissa believed that life was "very, very dangerous to live even one day".
Going off what Cj had mentioned about Virginia Woolf's difiance of so called "high society" reflects in the character of Mrs. Dalloway: the potentional for such a life, the oppertunity lingering there, but the refusal (and the upset nature) to embrace it.
This may be going off topic, but to connect to this idea of marriage, I wonder why the title is 'Mrs. Dalloway' and not 'Misses Dalloway'. 'Mrs' implies she is married or has some significant other, which the text says she refused (at least with Peter) but there is no other indication of another man in her life. I don't know if anyone can answer this yet, but I'm curious to see why this is, or if the text can answer it for me as I read on.
In answering the second question i agree with Cj that it seems Clarissa is slightly at war with who she is. That what she has always striven to be and been told to strive to be isn't what or who she wanted to be. I get the feeling that maybe she felt too restricted with Peter, that their arguments were often about how uptight she was and that his comment of "she would marry a Prime Minister and stand at the top of a staircase; the perfect hostess he called her.." Clarissa is not comfortable with this idea although even with as little knowledge of her as we had at that point in the story, it isnt surprising for that to be said of her. Maybe Clarissa isnt quite as comfortable with who she has become than she lets on.
I agree with laurel MIss Kilman is portrayed as a negative character mostly because she brings out the worst in Mrs. Dalloway. She feels that Miss Kilman is superior to her possible because she is poor and she feels that she should pity her in some way because she couldn't go to school during the war yet she hates her so deeply. I think Miss Dalloway hates not necessarily the her person in general but the fact that she brings out this nasty feelings and she ends up feeling guilty for them.
Mrs. Dalloway speaks often speaks of Miss Kilman. She does so in a negative way. People who antagonize us or lead us to question ourselves are often people who make us speak or act in ways which we do not want to. In other words, an antagonist brings out the worst in us, and that is exactly the effect that Miss Kilman has on Mrs. Dalloway.
The writing becomes more sarcastic, and cynical as well, whenever Miss Kilman's name is thrown in there: "...she was never in the room five minutes without making you feel her superiority, your inferiority; how poor she was; how rich you were;how she lived in a slum without a cushion or a bed or a rug or whatever it might be, all her soul rusted with that grievance sticking in it, her dismissal from school during the War-- poor embittered unfortunate creature!"
People who antagonize us also hold tremendous power over us. Miss Kilman is portrayed as a huge pessimist, and it is possible that some of that pessimism has rubbed off on Mrs. Dalloway.
Laurel
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In reference to Kim's question, I think Clarissa is married to Richard Dalloway, making her Mrs. Dalloway. I think it's interesting, though, given her inner struggle to be true to herself and push against the confines of her society, that the title of the book is Mrs. Dalloway, not Clarissa--as if that battle, "that being Mrs. Dalloway; not even Clarissa any more; this being Mrs. Richard Dalloway," is not necessarily resolved in Clarissa's favor, but in the rules of society's favor. This is really speculation though, and we'll have to keep reading!
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As many people mentioned above, how Mrs. Dolloway describes about Miss Kilman is very negative. For example, she describes Miss Kilman as a monster in page 12, and also a page before she calls Miss Kilman as a person who would do anything for Russians and Austrians. Since the setting is around the world war 1, calling someone as Russian or Austrian was probably very insulting. Besides the language she uses, she says that Miss Kilman is giving a bad influence to her child. Usually when someone thinks something is giving bad influence to their child, it means more than just hatred toward the reason. By saying that Kilman gives bad influence to her child, Mrs Dolloway, or the author makes Kilman as a perfect antagonist in this section of the book. Also, I think it is very interesting that the antagonist's name is Kilman, which sounds like 'Kill man,' making it very negative.
"For it was not her one hated but the idea of her..."
"...made all pleasure in beauty, in friendship, in being well, in being loved and making her home delightful...as if the whole panoply of content were nothing but self love! this hatred!"
"...she was never in the room five minutes without making you feel her superiority, your inferiority..."
Kind of what Julie was saying, I totally saw that it's not Miss Kilman herself that is the antagonist, but moreover Mrs. Dalloway's hatred of hating her. It is not Miss Kilman that is annoying, it is the fact that she can make you feel so bad about yourself. She is so poor, and you are so rich, and that makes you feel bad because you take comfort in being loved and making a beautiful home, something that Miss Kilman isn't able to do. It makes Mrs. Dalloway feel that she is self-absorbed, although perhaps not, which stresses her out.
checking in. to clarify i think it is the idea of Miss Kilman that makes Mrs. Dalloway thinks she is self-absorbed and she hates that she is like that, and she hates that Miss Kilman makes her like that, and so she hates herself even more.
ahhh make sense?
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I think what Christine said is very interesting. Maybe that is why Mrs. Dolloway keeps saying "nonsense, nonsense. . ." to stop her 'stream' of thinking, as what Catherine said.
Hey everyone! (It's Mike) Sorry, tonight i'll have to be kind of brief , but hopefully still get the point across!
In regards to question one, Miss Kilman very much seems to be the antagonist (at least as of now). Like what Annabel said, Mrs. Dalloway conintually (at least in ths passage) talks about her and how different they are from each other. Mrs. Dalloway even refers to her as a monster (or perhaps my interpreation of the text is off).
In regards to question 2, Clarissa is very much confused with herself (she is struggling internally). Also, Kim brings up a very good question about the actual title of the book. Why isn't it Miss Dalloway? It does not specifically state that she is married (or has a significant other) yet she is 'Mrs.' and does have Richard Dalloways last name.
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Rather than use Mrs. Dalloway's description of Miss Kilman, I'd like to point out her reaction to the character instead. She describes, so clearly, that Miss Kilman is one of those poisons that follows you in the night, that the simple thought of it simply made your skin crawl. "... had become one of those spectres with which one battles in the night; one of those spectres who stand astride us and suck up half our blood..." Her anger, her feel of something, proves to us that her hatred for Miss Kilman goes far beyond this. There must have been a past, or even care. That fact that Mrs. Dalloway allows herself to feel anything towards someone like so, must be foreshadowing for another great encounter.
Mrs. Dalloway cries when Peter says she "has the makings of a perfect hostess." This is not what she wants to hear from him. She wants him to see her for who she is --independent of societal expectatiions of her. Saying she will make a good hostess is implying that she is a "cookie-cutter" woman, that she is fulfilling her stereotypical role. Clarissa, because she loves Peter, wants him to see her as an individual, as a strong woman, as someone who as the potential to be more than a hostess, than a "lady," someone who has the intellect to be is equal, his partner in discussions, and in life. She considers his comment demeaning, and I can completely understand her crying over it.
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