Buckingham PalaceIn this section, we continue to follow the progress of the car with the important person in it, and briefly enters the consciousness of some people in the crowd at Buckingham Palace, waiting for the car, hoping to get near someone so important. They look up and see an airplane spelling out a message in the sky with its exhaust-smoke. Septimus and Lucrezia see it too.
1. See if you can spot symptoms of Septimus's mental illness in this section. Discuss. If you need to be speculative, be speculative, but keep your eye on what the text says. If you want to, turn back to Septimus's thought (or the narrator's articulation of what people like Septimus often feel: "the world has raised its whip; where will it descend?"
AND/OR
2. Discuss what life with Lucrezia's life with Septimus is like.
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Septimus' thoughts are very observant. It was interesting that the doctor had told Lucrezia that he was self absorbed and that she needed to make him take notice of the outside world because I found the opposite by reading his thoughts i thought he was overly observant and although his thoughts frequently returned to himself and what the doctor thinks is wrong with him or if something is wrong with him at all? he is very interested in the outside world. He seems to hear language not as words, "A roughness in her voice like a grasshopper's. which rasped his spine deliciously and sent running up into his brain wavs of sound which, concussing, broke." (21) He hears words as sound and nothing really means anything it is all just an observation. He also does the same for what he sees. He seems to be drawn into shape of the trees and their shape but he doesn't necessarily see that shape as a tree but as a beautiful signal and their movement seems to be mesmerizing to him. I think he's mental illness was apparent in the way that nothing around him means anything and that he doesn't engage in anything as well as his random interjects of things that didn't quite make sense in context.
Their relationship is really interesting- it's a big push and pull. Of course Septimus embarrasses Lucrezia by first of all causing a scene because he thought that he had been the cause of the car backfire and then by saying that "leaves were alive; trees were alive. And the leaves being connected by millions of fibres with his own body..."
Then Lucrezia's response is "He was selfish. So men are. For he was not ill. Dr. Holmes said there was nothing the matter with him. She spread her hand before her. Look! Her wedding ring slipped- she had grown so thin. It was she who suffered- but she had nobody to tell."
So all in all, it seems that this relationship has become less of a loving, reciprocal relationship and one more like that of a child and worried parent. Both of them are being torn at- Lucrezia from worry (especially after he says something about death), and Septimus from his illness brought on by all the horrible things that happened in the war.
Some signs of Septimus's mental illness can be seen in where Lucrezia tells Septimus to look at the words in the sky, and the readers see that a certain doctor told her to tell Septimus to take an interest in things outside himself. I found this a little strange, because the natural instinct for us as human beings is to take interest in other people - for example when you meet someone you ask questions to find out more about that person; it is taking interest in things outside your own world.
Also, he seems to see things much more vividly and more detailed, as shown in, "tears filled his eyes as he looked at the smoke words languishing and melting in the sky and bestowing upon him in their inexhaustible charity and laughing goodness..." He seems to see so much more than the average person.
Additionally, Septimus seems to hallucinate in which he sees the trees being alive, in a personified form - he also seems to think he's connected with nature, judging by the way the Woolf describes his relationship with the trees, and how he is seemingly somewhat "connected" to them .
Lastly, we can see that Septimus sort of tunes out to what is happening around them and just gets absorbed in his own world as Lucrezia has to snap him back to the 'real' world of the novel.
The first major clue of Septimus's illness was on page 21, "(who had nothing whatever seriously the matter with him but was a little out of sorts) take an interest in things outside himself." This passage shows how Septimus is not physically sick proven by the doctor (nothing whatever seriously the matter with him), but his is mentally sick, (but was a little out of sorts). Also the doctor suggesting that Septimus take an interest outside of himself, suggests that Septimus has mostly stopped communicating/talking and probably is staring into space all of the time.
The second clue is when Septimus thinks that the plane is signaling to him and that it was so beautiful to him that he started crying. "So, thought Septimus, looking up, they are signaling to me... he could not read the language yet... and tears filled his eyes as he looked at the smoke words languishing and melting in the sky." I would also like to point out that his twisted vision of the world comes through in the diction. Instead of using the word dissolving into the sky, he uses melting into the sky. Clouds don't melt they simply fade away as suggested by Mr. Bowley " and the smoke faded and assembled itself round the broad white shapes of the clouds." So in contrasting and comparing Mr. Bowley's observation of how the letters went into the clouds and Septimus's interpretation of what happened to the letters, shows how Septimus is mad by his distorted vision of reality that comes through in the diction.
In response to the second question, one would think that Lucrezia's life with Septimus is that of a difficult one.
The main passage to me that seemed to summarize their relationship was on page 22, "For she could stand it no longer. Dr. Holmes might say there was nothing the matter. Far rather would she that he were dead! She could not sit beside him when he stared so and did not see her and made everything terrible; sky and tree, children playing, dragging carts, blowing whistles, falling down; all were terrible. And he would not kill himself; and she could tell no one. 'Septimus has been working too hard' - that was all she could say to her own mother. To love makes one solitary, she thought. ... but Septimus had fought; he was brave; he was not Septimus now. She put on her lace collar. She put on her new hat and he never noticed; and he was happy without her. Nothing could make her happy without him! Nothing! ... Dr. Holmes said there was nothing the matter with him."
Through this long passage you, as a reader, seem to gather everything about Septimus's and Lucrezia's relationship: Lucrezia does not believe that he is mentally ill, for Dr. Holmes said so, and for that she believes he does not love her, or is out of love with her. She says he could be happy without her, but she could not be happy without him. To everyone else, there is this sympathy: this outside exterior of pity for Lucrezia, for her husband is 'mentally ill' or there is something of void or missing within him. But, as the text tell us, he wasn't always like this; he was strong once, and that is what Lucrezia had fallen for: his strength, his hunger.
The text also presents us with the evidence that she had tried to please him; tried to ignite something under their marriage, to make him come back to her as she had known him; "She put on her lace collar. She put on her new hat and he never noticed; he was happy without her."
The frustration comes from the fact that she still cares - deeply cares - for Septimus. Also that their tufts are publically displayed for observation, yet no one notices - "her wedding ring slipped - she had grown she thin. It was she who suffered - but she had nobody to tell."
It is this fear that their marriage, or their relationship, is over that she cannot tell people, it seems, at least in the society of cocktail parties and dinner banquets. To lose your husband, to have him lose interest in you, to not be able to please him, seems unacceptable; isn't it a wife's job to please her husband? This obligation - this forced masochism - shows us into the world of possibly what Virginia Woolf herself was running away from; that difiance we had talked about in class; that refusal to accept that life is only one-dimensional for women.
Similar to what everyone has been saying, Lucrezia is embarrassed when Septimus had one of his usual public outbursts. Septimus is obviously living in an internal world that is separate to the world that the other characters live in. He is alone and no one understands what he is trying to communicate, even though his wife tries. Rezia seems overwhelmed by him and even gets frustrated. "She could not sit beside him when he stared so and did not see her and made everything terrible..." she feels alone and hates seeing her husband so detached from everyone and everything. Her pain, however, only lasts a moment because she remembers her devotion she has for him and yet again returns to where he was sitting.
I agree with what has been said about Lucrezia and her feelings of frustration in her relationship with “nobody”. I noticed the line that came after one of Septimus’ little spacing out moments when he was called back to reality. I am not sure if the narration is coming from Septimus’ mind or Lucrezia’s at this point, but I would like to think that it is coming from Septimus. “’Septimus!’ said Rezia. He started violently. People must notice.” The reason I think that this is one of Septimus’ thoughts is the use of the nickname for Lucrezia, Rezia is a sort of pet name maybe, that I doubt she would use in her own thoughts. Also, this shows that Septimus is at least to some point conscious of his actions and what reactions they spur in people around him. The fact that when he jumped back into noticing the park around him, his first thought was whether anyone had noticed, shows that he is aware of his actions and that they are strange. Right before this passage, when he was in his reverie, he was listening to the sounds around him: “A child cried. Rightly far away a horn sounded. All taken together meant the birth of a new religion” Usually when I hear crying followed by a car horn I do not immediately jump to thoughts of religion.
There is something different going on in his head although I find it interesting that he jumps from thought to thought in a similar manner to Mrs. Dalloway. However, they do have different thoughts; dancing trees versus parties and neighbors. I think it will be very interesting to read further and see what really goes on inside his head in different situations, because sitting in the park does not lend to a very interesting setting.
Apart from where the author refers to Septimus's illness or non illness, we can see that he is at least disconnected from the people is with. he is startled by Rezia's voice, and though he had been processing his own thoughts about his surrounding,s he doesn't notice her or other people in relation to him. Also when he starts to cry and Rezia is reading the letters in the sky to him the reader is immediately alerted to something strange. He is after all a grown man.
I think Lucrezia's love for her husband is truly tested in this part of the book. It is clearly not at all easy for her to be living with a husband who has those kinds of problems. He finds trees and leaves alive, and ruins situations such as kids playing, and trees, and whistles blowing. Also, the fact that he wants to kill himself, but she isn't able to tell anyone. She seems to believe in him, though, such as when she says "And it was cowardly for a man to say he would kill himself, but Septimus had fought; he was brave; he was not Septimus now". Though it's unclear exactly what Septimus suffers from, it is clear that his wife suffers more from it than he does. She is the one who needs him, so she puts up with what she does, and "her wedding ring slipped-she had grown so thin." And as she can't talk to her husband about it, she feels very alone.
Septimus' mental problems crowd the life of Lucrezia all too much for her to bare living with him. She feels that she has to take care of him. It seems as though Lucrezia is worn out, tired from this constant having to think about his problems all the time. She is worn. It's an interesting parallel because she fixes hats, which seems like an "old person/fashioned" job and also the hats are worn out needed to be fixed. She worn out and tired, needed to be helped/fixed of this responsibility she seems to think she has for Septimus. Overall, she doesn't like living with Septimus I don't think. She's over-sick of it.
There are definite signs of Septimus' mental illness. Pathological or mentally ill individuals tend to obsess on the little things, or just be much more observant than the others around him, but is quite disengaged from the people around him.
He publicly humiliates Lucrezia several times, and receives advice from a doctor as to what to look for in the sky, and thinks that the plane is trying to communicate with him: " So, thought Septimus, looking up, they are signalling to me. Not indeed in actual words; that is, he could not read the language yet;..."
the fact that he is with a doctor should be proof enough.
Septimus is also told to become more involved with others, and not be so involved with himself.
Checking in…Many people have brought up the fact that the doctor told him to not be so inward, but I agree with Sierra, in that he does not appear to be very self-centered or even "selfish" as Lucrezia describes him. I think that this could just be due to the lack of knowledge and acceptance of different types of people at the time this story takes place.
I found the passage "Her wedding ring slipped--she had grown so thin. It was she who suffered-- but she had nobody to tell" to be particularly intriguing and very melancholy in a way. I think it describes Lucrezia and Septimus' relationship well. It seems she has grown so thin and so worn from trying to up a dying relationship. It was she who suffered because she had to take care for someone that by the looks of it didn't return the favor. What really ends this passage sadly is "but she had nobody to tell."
Perhaps Septimus' illness, and being foreign, causes the other English ladies to look down upon them?
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I must agree with what Catherine said about how different people in the 1920's perceived and accepted certain people and that is why Septimus is self-indulgent if you will.
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I agree that Septimus seems very inward from an outsiders point of view while he is still very observant of his surroundings he doesn't let anyone in on his thoughts so no one really knows what he is thinking or whether he is just being selfish and staying to himself.
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also agreeing with everybody. and remember when mr. durning said that soon we'd be in the head of a mentally ill person!
also, it is perhaps important to notice how he observes things quite differently than mrs. dalloway. things seem more alive, exuberent, just all around WHOA.
The most obvious sign of his mental illness is Lucrezia's refusal that there is anything wrong with him. She says the doctor said: "There was nothing whatever seriously the matter with him." This is mentioned several times, and the denial that there might be a problem immediately implies that there is. There are numerous other signs of his mental illness. He becomes afraid easily -- like Clarissa, he has a strong and observant stream-of-conciousness. The parallels between their thought processes are interesting. However, while Clarissa finds clouds and children and flowers and cars beautiful, Septimus finds them frightening. It is said that his eyes "had that look of apprehension in them," as if the world frightens him. Interestinglly enough, this ties back into what Clarissa said at the beginning -- about how dangerous it is to live even one day. This brings up the question of how to draw the line between sanity and insanity. Another big clue to Septimus' illness is his vague paranoia. He says of the engine clouds: "so....they are signalling to me." All of his observation is immediately applied to himself. He has also mentioned killing himself, with causes Lucrezia much grief. One can infer, just based on her frustration with her inattentive husband, that there is something not quite right with his head -- that something is getting in the way of their having a successful relationship.
The relationship between Lucrezia and Septimus is saddening. He is extremely self-absorbed, retreating ever deeper into his distorted psyche. She, who in her youth has left her home in Italy to be with him, is ignored. It is clear that she still loves him, she says: "Nothing could make her happy without him! Nothing!" She is quick to take his arm, and be attentive to his needs. He, however, does not seem to notice her at all: "she put on her new hat and he never noticed" This must be incredibly frustrating. What makes it even harder is the stigma associated with mental illness. It would be completely taboo for Lucrezia to tell anyone, even her own family, that Septimus had mentioned killing himself. Even to her mother she must lie about the state of the relationship, because to tell the truth would be innapropriate, drawing too much attention to the couple's private life. Their relationship is not reciprocal. Septimus is pre-occupied, and is unable to give Lucrezia the love she needs and deserves. In addition, neither of them seems comfortable with the idea that he suffers from a serious mental affliction.
Septimus's mental illness is such that he is incredibly aware and affected by what goes on around him, and what occurs inside his head. I do not think that he necessarily does not love Lucrezia (he married her and brought her home with him from Italy, after all) but it is more that now he doesn't have space for her in his complex inner universe of tension and mental illness; she is a force with which he cannot really deal with except on his own terms. (Which, granted, is understandably really difficult for Lucrezia, and it is unfair for her to have to feel so isolated when she loves him so much that she could never be happy without him). At one point the reader is in Septimus's consciousness and he is discussing the birds and their song: "the spaces between them were as significant as the sounds" (Woolf, 22). He sees beauty in disconnect as well as in connection. From this, one can speculate that he might see no problem with the way he treats Lucrezia and how their relationship is going, that there's no need for him to notice a new hat or take enjoyment out of walking arm in arm with her; the spaces between them can be, from his perspective, just as valuable as the "sounds," or their actual contact.
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Ms. WOolf does an incredible job at describing characters that have a complete an utmost mystery. Written almost for an actor to play a role, we realize the character's story, no matter how comprehensible the character might seem at first. I say this because- when first described Lucrezia seems like the young fruitless wife. "But her husband, for they had been married four, five years now, jumped, started and said, "All right!" angrily, as if she had interrupted him." Yet another stereotype, as we described today in class. However, I'm not sure that is the right word. Can ideals be negative? Can there be the ideal violator? If so, is it then that we consider it a stereotype.
Anywho, the point I'm trying to make here, is that Virginia Woolf has a great way of giving us a gist of a character, a one surfaced description and the narration later gives us a back ground story. A history. Through later descriptions, also, we start understanding Clarissa better, a more subtle way into her head. ""She could not sit beside him when he stared so and did not see her and made everything terrible; sky and tree, children playing, dragging cars, blowing whistles, falling downs; all were terrible." A relationship is brought to life.
p.s: i deleted the previous comment, i was on the wrong account.
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"Septimus heard her say "Kay Arr" close to his ear, deeply, softly, like a mellow organ, but with a roughness in her voice like a grasshopper's, which rasped his spine deliciously and sent running up into his brain waves of sound which, concussing, broke." (pg 21)
It seems like Septimus is very sensitive to outer world, and receiving all the inputs from world into a very rich descriptive language. However, whenever he figures that the inputs are uncomfortable, he just stops receiving and returns to himself. For example, he says, "But he would not go mad. He would shut his eyes; he would see no more." (pg 22)
Septimus has a very different thought process than most of the other characters do. When the aeroplane flies overhead spewing the smoke he thinks it is a signal for him, which clearly shows that he is not in his full mental capability. He is self centerened, not in a conceited way, but he only thinks for himself. He is wrapped up in his own world.
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