A world War I photograph. Note the gas masks. In this reading, we learn about Septimus' time fighting in this war. Note how his experience and his mental illness are connected.Possible topics: how are Septimus' experience fighting the war and his illness connected?
Another possible topic: while we can't deal with this question conclusively: the two main characters so far are (arguably) Clarissa Dalloway and Septimus Smith. Does the juxtaposition of these two unrelated characters have meaning? (Of course.) What might be a possible meaning?
25 comments:
FIRST BLOG ENTRY!!!! YEAH!!!!!
First off, there is definitely a connection between Septimus's experience in the War and his "illness".
I put illness in quotation marks because it seems to be an interesting way to describe Septimus's situation. The word illeness usually implies sickness however this really not the case with Septimus; he is not sick either physically or mentally (now the fact that he is mentally unstable can perhaps be argued, because who is one to judge what is normal?). A second definition of illness is an unhealthy or altered condition of body or mind, which would apply to Septimus's state. The war has affected him greatly, and this is perhaps the way that he (whether consciously or sub-consciously) deals with this trauma that has had such a huge impact on his life.
It seems, at least how he has described it, that his time involved in the War was so traumatic that, in fact, after the war, he can no longer feel. This is not simply a physical ailment (meaning he is not simply slightly hard of hearing from the shell shock, nor is it just muscle aches or physical pains) he seems to have no emotion.
I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but the fact that he believes he that he can't feel seems to be a paradox especially to the prior reading.
In the park, many emotions and feelings come over him. They range from negative feelings for his wife to positive feelings for the nature and life happenings around him. He also remembers his old friend and former officer Evans and has great affection as well as great fear of him when he sees a ghostly memory of him (while his mind wanders in the park). In the reading today, he also remembers being in love with Isabel Pole and the relationship that they shared of that he wished they shared.
Perhaps he can feel in his mind, perhaps he can feel emotions that are evoked from his memory, but he is indifferent to the present and all of its happenings.
An interesting argument to bring up is: Is Septimus bringing this 'illness' upon himself? Is this a conscious or sub-conscious choice? Or is it a choice at all? Because one may say, why in the world would Septimus consciously choose to disconnect from the real world and slowly but surely drift away from the people he loves and really his own life? However, one could also say that this is the only way Septimus can deal with these aweful memories and events in his past. This disconnection from society and the breaking of these ties that connect a mind to a normal state acts as an escape from a present that Septimus knows he cannot bear.
These are the questions that are raised.
Septimus does not have an illness of intelligence “he could add up his bill; his brain was perfect” but a lack of emotions “he could not feel.” In response to one of Mike’s questions I don’t think that Septimus has chosen to have this “illness” but rather chosen to not try very hard to overcome it. I imagine that war can do terrible things to a person; being surrounded by violence and death, and this has obviously happened to Septimus. What I think he is doing is letting that haze take over his everyday life and he is allowing it to become a barrier between himself and the outside world around him. Septimus could fight against his past and try to put some of it behind him but instead sees dead men behind trees in the park and believes that the trees are singing to him. I don’t think that there is anything physically wrong with Septimus’ brain; however there is clearly something missing on the emotional side.
There is a huge connection between Septimus's experience in the war and his illness. Before the war Septimus was a brilliant and talented young poet, who was predicted by Mr. Brewer to take his place when he retired. "Thinking very highly of Smith's abilities, and prophesying that he would, in ten or fifteen years, succeed to the leather arm-chair in the inner room under the skylight with the deed-boxes round him." pg, 84. But after the war Septimus became an unfriendly, bitter, unsympathetic, and both uninterested and untalented poet. "When something happened which threw out many of Mr. Brewer's calculations, took away his ablest young fellows, and eventually, so prying and insidious were the fingers of the European War, smashed a plaster cast of Ceres, ploughed a hole in the geranium beds, and utterly ruined the cooks nerves at Mr. Brewer's establishment at Muswell Hill." The experiences of the war from Mr. Brewer's "young fellows" which includes Septimus, according to the passage, ruined and killed his "young fellows."
Septimus's time spent and experiences in the war made him change into a hostile person. "There were experiences, again experiences, such as change a face in two years from a pink innocent oval to a face lean, contracted, hostile." pg. 82.
The brutal war made him hard to emotion and more serious, taking away his innocence and turning him into a more mean spirited person. Because of this hardness of emotion he does not feel a great sadness when Evan dies. This "not feeling" freaks Septimus out to the point where he pushes himself to quickly get engaged to Lucrezia. "He became engaged one evening when the panic was on him- that he could not feel." Septimus must have experienced the same type of panic multiple times before because it refers to Septimus's panic not as a but the panic, making it a specific panic. This panic is from the war.
I would just like to point out that the relation between Evans and Septimus is a little fishy. I think that their great friendship is more than a friendship, possible an affair. "He drew the attention, indeed the affection of his officer, Evans by name." In the passage above is describes how Evans had an affection or liking to Septimus. If they author was merely stating the friendly affection he would have said interest or liking. "They had to be together, share with each other, fight with each other, quarrel with each other." This describes the intensity between them that could not exist in a friendship but could exist in a love affair. "Undemonstrative in the company of women." This passage is part of Lucrezia's description of Evan describing him as unemotional to women as in uninterested in women or not attracted to women. So it is Septimus's panic that he may be attracted to men that he marries Lucrezia to assure himself that he is not gay but is and could be attracted to women. This then could be a possible explanation of why Septimus is proud of himself when he does not feel strong sadness when Evan dies.
If we were to truly diagnose what is going on for Septimus we could say that he is suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. The trauma that he experienced is the war, and due to his description he talks about how he has shut off from the world he knows. He still hears things from his trauma and still carries with him the affects of what happened.
attempting the 2nd topic, i feel that the contrasts between Clarissa and Septimus are becoming clearer and clearer. Simple details, that Woolf adds in, all contribute to their ongoing differences. one major contrast that we should notice is when Clarissa mends her dress and Septimus goes to his appointment. They both deal with these small situations and realities while unknowingly mirroring their own selves. Clarissa putting her dress down is a representation of how she faces society. She smoothly and smartly fixes it and mends the dress to perfection. This is how she deals with everything in her everyday life: relationships and social situations. She approaches things with charm, sophistication, and perfection. This calming perfection is contrasted with Septimus' clear inability to conform, or even accept, society. While Clarissa welcomes societal standings, Septimus fights human nature. He even views his doctor as holding the bad attributes of humanity. Septimus ignores the "normal" standings and is even unable to "feel" emotion. Septimus is clearly educated but, for some reason, cannot connect to a nature that he hates and even fears.
"he looked at people outside; happy they seemed, collecting in the middle of the street, shouting, laughing, squabbling over nothing. But he could not taste, he could not feel.... he could reason; he could read, Dante for example, quite easily... he could add up his bill; his brain was perfect; it must be the fault of the world then- that he could not feel."
I think that Septimus is obviously capable of having intelligence and mental capacity, but because of his experiences in the war, and the somewhat harsh techniques from his sessions, he becomes unstable. Even though he is an unemotional and detached person, it is ironic that he can be affected by small things (such as his wife's desire for chocolate and ices). Clarissa is capable of not letting things affect her on the outside, like Peter returning, etc. But Septimus shows his feelings inside and out. this is what separates the two lead characters.
checking in...I like the ending point that Audrey made that really wraps up the two main characters and how they express themselves. I find it interesting that Septimus is supposed to be the character who can't feel anything, but he is the one who ends up showing his emotions the most. On the other hand, Clarissa, who is very pulled together and proper hides all of her emotions, even from her past lover, Peter.
Septimus seems to have lost a part of reality from when he went to war. Everything good about life and human nature was gone. He no longer felt anything, no enjoyment or sadness. This was the beginning of his "illness". later on we read of all that Septimus feels and sees and imagines. I think that Clarissa and Septimus are very similar because their minds are often so centered on things that wouldn't really matter to others.
I feel that the "illness" that Septimus is suffering from is not really an "illness" but rather a kind of emotional problem as he cannot feel.
I think that his emotional problem is caused by the harshness of the war upon him, as "the last shells missed him" and "He watched them explode with indifference" and the sound of exploding shells was enough to cause mental illness and it was also considered a psychiatric illness. One of the symptoms was disconnection from one's surroundings, which I suspect may be the cause of Septimus' emotional drawbacks.
checking in
Septimus' experiences in the War are obviously very deeply connected to his illness. He laims to have lost the ability to feel, and explains this by saying that he physically cannot feel anything. I was kind of confused as to if Woolf was trying to convey that he could no longer feel anything emotionally as well? I think he could still feel things emotionally, because certain things (wife's longing for chocolate ice) triggered certain reactions, and certain memories and pains of the war seem to get to him as well.
If we can go far enough to say that he is still emotionally stable enough to "feel" though, is something that is confusing me. I also found the memory of officer Evans interesting. For someone who could have (up until now) been described as "emotionally detached", I do believe that Septimus did get a little emotional when thinking about his friend, who has since passed. It is important to point out that Septimus is still able-minded, though ("he could add up his bill...').
Perhaps there is something to what Mike brought up- maybe he believes so strongly that he can't feel, that his thoughts alone are impairing him to feel.
Whatever the case may be, I do believe that the war definitely deeply affected Septimus and contributed (on some level) to his state. I agree with Todd in that he may be experiencing post-traumatic stress syndrome.
I agree with everyone so far. It seems pretty clear that Septimus does not exactly have a brain illness, but more something with his emotions. He seemed intelligent and happy, but war seemed to be what tore his emotions apart, and made him the way he now is. In life, hardly anyone who is "insane" was born that way. Nearly everyone has some sort of event that caused them to be that way. In Septimus's case, it appears to be war that made him lose his mind.
Let me start off by saying that I agree with silverpixie07 that Septimus has a burden of an emotional endeavour, as I would say, rather than an illness. I also want to touch on something that Mike said about how does Septimus come about this "illness" which in my belief is an emotional endeavour. Does he have a choice for this to be present in his own world and body? I propose (as Mr. Gregg would say) that Septimus did not truly have a choice or so he thought anyway because, Mike DiBiccaro said it best that it was an escape from all the bad memories that tear him apart emotionally. This is why it's an emotional endeavour instead of a sickness or illness. I don't like either of those words because that's not clear and specific enough to Septimus' case. Septimus is just trying to escape these bad feelings. Who wouldn't want to esacpe them? He tried to escape it all by cutting off from the world around him and by creating his own world. That is not the case though. He can not escape it. He just really thought it was the only way out.
checking in
Looking at the second question:
First of all, I totes agree with Audrey that the ways they show their feelings portray interesting differences.
I also think that the juxtaposition of the two main characters provides contrasts and curiosities. Both have highly active brains, thoughts, and observations--Clarissa's remain further in the realm of reality than Septimus's, true, but both are energetic and observant. Septimus says he cannot feel, and it's true that he does not seem to be able to feel basic, normal human emotions, but he certainly seems to be able to feel the emotions created by his mental illness (sparked by World Way I, as discussed in the above blog postings). Clarissa is highly able to feel, and most of the things she is able to feel seem quite centered in basic, normal human emotions: affection for her husband, love for Peter (and worry and confusion as a result), and her social status.
Both Clarissa and Septimus, though, have thoughts that an outsider might not expect from them. Septimus is maybe the more obvious example; he thinks trees talk to him, etc. Clarissa, though, is not mentally restrained to the world of upper class England she is so comfortable in. She takes deep delight in flowers and the morning and the clatter of the busy London streets, and wants her life to be enriched. She also (and this gives her much depth, I think) worries about having meaning in her life, not wanting to be merely "the perfect hostess." I think if that if one is aware enough to worry that one's life has meaning, then one has come quite far.
So Septimus and Clarissa, though different in their ways of feeling, both are more complicated and have more intense relationships with their universes than an outsider might guess.
Therefore, a possible meaning: to exist is to feel and to be complex, and the ways people do so can be highly varied, yet there are aspects to feeling that are universal.
From the beginning of this story we realized how much the world and nature means to clarissa and how much she observes everything that goes on around her. Septimus is similar because he sees the outside world intensely and observes it only as shapes and colors. Both of their characters are very interested in observing and they seem to pick up the same things while most other people would not.
As to septimus' illness I think that going through that harsh situation and the position he was in going to war could very well have altered his perception of the outside world and although he may not necessarily be ill he sees the world differently now. The word "ill" is very subjective because when does someones way of thinking become an illness? How can you know if they are just too different that it is wrong?
Second question:
Clarissa and Septimus. It is quite obvious that they are both very observant, very intellectual. What's interesting is that Clarissa is aware that she feels, and feels too much at times (like being angry with herself for feeling like she was angry with Elizabeth's friend), and Septimus is aware that he doesn't feel. Perhaps this is the juxtaposition: feeling and not feeling. Perhaps the juxtaposition of these two characters is telling us kind of what life at the time did to people, or what life is like through the different ways you take and see it. Should you ignore petty feelings, like Septimus? Or what happens when you let petty things become dramatic feelings? Society and war are both very taxing things, so it is interesting to see what they do to people. Seems like being too stoic and being too dramatic.
What I find interesting about Septimus and Clarissa is that I think on a superficial level, they are very different. Clarissa is a level- headed, high society public figure who always looks the part. Septimus, however, is suffering from insanity due to the war that he served in.
Yet at the same time, I find these two characters really similar. They both spend time trying to keep their privacy, but they both also communicate with other people. They almost have a need to communicate with other people, and communicate well. They both think differently than the people who surround them. Septimus does because of his "illness", and Clarissa does simply because she is different; she doesn't love being the poster child for well- bred society, she once loved very deeply a woman, and she has a strong connection to nature. This also brings up another similarity between the two: Septimus talks about the trees at the beginning of the book, and he seems very passionate about them.
I think that all in all, Septimus and Clarissa are so much alike, they could almost be the same character when you strip them of everything on the more superficial level.
- Checking in -
Just to touch on question 2 quickly because I focussed on question 1 in my previous blog.
It is interesting to what everyone said both to compare as well as differentiate Clarissa and Septimus. I agree with Laurel that both characters have thoughts that someone observing them would not expect them to be thinking. They are also both very observant (while Clarissa's observation of the world and nature are more 'down to Earth' you could say and Septimus's observations about the world and everyday life are more 'out of this world' - sorry for being cliche).
Also, perhaps going off of what Audrey said, Clarissa accepts reality and society while Septimus rejects it. They do however both make it (society) their own, in a way. Clarissa mends it and fixes it (such as in the dress analogy) so that she can find it bearable/suitable; Septimus basically makes his own reality in his mind where he can control everything and where he basically is the king.
Mr. Durning, is it possible to talk about Septimus' illness in class? I'm (still) unsure whether he can actually feel and have emotion or not, because at times it seems like he has very strong opinions and emotions, yet obviously he says that he doesn't/can't. Thanks!
Checking in--
I think this is a cool discussion about our two main characters. Awesome points all round.
Also, as to what Mike said about them each "making society their own"--highly interesting--can we extend this and say that this is how it is for every human being? That we all make society, and the world, our own by how we take it in and experience it?
Checking in, I commend Laurel for being brave and discussing the juxtaposition of the two main characters. Thank you Laurel.
checking in
(great comments everyone !!!)
checking in
ahhh my comment from last night didn't post!!
ok. well. i'll rewrite it after class.
checking innnn
Well, ok.
What I tried to say yesterday...
Trying to argue the second point -We don't necessarily know what the reasoning behind Classira being the way she is, as we know very little about her childhood. What I mean by "the way she is" is that she's an incredibly observant person. The things that make her happy, regular people don't notice daily. They forget to notice. In that way, Clarissa and Septimus and very much alike. In order to really understand these two characters, it's essential to go back to the beginning of the book when Ms. Woolf first describes Clarissa's joy in observing, and the passage when Septimus's wife is asking him to "please look at the sheep," he's only response being, "they're only sheep." For a woman, such as Septimus's wife, it became a daily thing to observe people's clothing, jewelry, shoes- the obvious things. I think what Ms. Woolf is trying to tell us here is that for pretty much a very similar output, a way of being, can be created by two completely different inputs- a war, or an experience as a child perhaps.
ok. that's all.
yay!
Post a Comment