An example of sky-writing.In these pages, we learn some things about Clarissa Dalloway's love life in the time before she was married. What do we learn, and how do they affect our sense of her character? Don't feel you have to discuss every single thing we learn about her love life; comment on any number you feel appropriate. If you would like to make a comment unrelated to this specific prompt, feel free to do so.
32 comments:
As it turns out, Clarissa has slept alone in her bed since she had influenza. She feels some emptiness, but she's not upset or really in need of anything sexual or romantic from Richard. In fact, she thinks about how she had, many years before, maybe been in love with a girl, Sally Seton. Sally went to Bourton with Clarissa and was somewhat of a rebel, running naked through the halls, smoking cigarettes, and kissing Clarissa. Clarissa recounts the kiss as somewhat of a religious experience which is interesting. Whether that's metaphoric as the experience being a life- changing one or if, for some reason, it actually had to do with her religious inclinations, this was clearly a big moment for Clarissa.
I think CJ is right that Clarissa doesn't expect much from Richard as far as sex is concerned. Their relationship seems mutually respectful, but not necessarily passionate. She does not seem conciously upset about having to sleep in her own bed since her influenza, Richard having insisted that she "sleep undisturbed." However, this physical isolation triggers her memory of Sally Seton.
She prefaces her description of Sally by saying that her feelings were "not like one's feelings for a man. [they] were completely disinterested, and besides, [they] had a quality which could only exist between women, between women just grown up." This suggests that she was not "in love" with Sally in the traditional sense. I don't think we can jump to any conclusions about Clarissa's sexuality, but her description of Sally, and the time she devotes to it, surpasses her description of any other character with whom she was romantically involved.
When she refers to Peter, it is often in terms of herself, how he made her feel, etc... Her references to Richard are often rooted in the logistics of their relationship. However she describes Sally with more intimacy, more lovingness, than she does the men. She describes "going cold with excitement" at the thought of having dinner with Sally. She describes Sally's voice as a caress, and her "extra-ordinary beauty."
It is very probable that Clarissa became enamored of Sally because of the shock-value she provided -- running around naked, beheading flowers, denouncing private property. However, the relationship seems to have been the most emotionally intimate of Clarissa's life (as far as we have seen).
I, too, think that it was almost a religious experience -- allowing Clarissa to devote herself fully to another person without the rigidity of courtship, followed by marriage, followed by children, etc... However metaphorical the relationship might have been, I do not doubt that Clarissa was in love with Sally. The emotions she describes are in such accordance with romantic love: "nothing is so strange when one is in love...as the complete indifference of other people."
She describes the moment when Sally kissed her as "the most exquisite moment of her life...the whole world might have turned upside-down!" The fact that, thirty years later, she still describes it as such implies that she has not had that "exquisite" an experience with another person since.
I think its interesting that Peter was the one who came upon them, who separated them. She describes his "hostility," his "jealosy," his "determination to break into their companionship." I wonder how much of a toll this experience took on Clarissa's relationship with Peter. There are certainly no implications that Clarissa felt as physically intimate with Peter as she did with Sally.
I think Clarissa genuinely loved Sally, and that the relationship was her way of experiencing a love free of societal confines. Because courtship/marriage to Sally was never an option, there was no need for Clarissa to be wary or to keep herself in check, as she was forced to do with Peter.
In the narrative, Clarissa does not give much thought to the implications of her relationship with Sally, so it is my opinion that it should be taken at face value.
Gosh that was long, sorry!!! :-)
What i found most interesting about Clarissa's relationship with Sally was the way it effected her. Unlike Peter and she who had their disagreements and problems and unlike Richard who is no longer really sexually involved with Clarissa, it seems Sally made Clarissa feel liberated in some sense. I agree with Gabi that an important thing to note about the relationship was that it was free of social confines because neither of them could begin to consider it really meaning something. i again agree with Gabi in that i think Sally was so crazy and so out of the ordinary that she was a shock and something to keep Clarissa interested and on her toes.
Clarissa, whose life is one with so many pre-definitions and pre-expectations, was freed and given an eye-opening, unique escape through her love with Sally Seton. All of her other "romantic" relationships fit nicely into the pre-definitions and expectations of who she is and how her life as an upper class English lady is supposed to go: with Richard, it isn't overly sexual, just, as Gabi said, "mutually respectful." This is appropriate and closed in. Even her relationship with Peter, which seems to have more of an effect on her emotions and thoughts, was with an upper-class man who asked her to marry him and who she refused: a normal, fitting relationship. These relationships, while valid, don't push Clarissa; they don't help her expand. Richard, in some ways, confines her, making her "not even Clarissa anymore" just Mrs. Dalloway, and Peter, though important and loving, makes judgments. Sally, though, was entirely different from anything Clarissa had experienced. She didn't pressure her to be anything but herself, yet she helped Clarissa expand and grow and feel. They were comfortable around each other. Clarissa, supposed to be a complacent upper class lady, was writing up letters for forming a society to abolish private property, for goodness sake. Clarissa felt, when going to meet with the beautiful, exciting Sally, "if it were now to die 'twere now to be most happy," and means it. Likewise, when Sally kisses her on the lips, it was "the most exquisite moment of her whole life."
Throughout the book so far, we have seen Clarissa push for meaning in her life, longing to be more than "the perfect hostess," (even if it is debatable as to if she really can or not). She delights in the flowers and bustle of London, looking for meaning and fulfillment within the quiet sphere of her life. Her relationship with Sally seems to have been the biggest example of this thus far: Sally opened her eyes and gave her room to be herself and to grow, with freedom, affection, and exhilaration.
ok well i definitely agree with everything that has been said so far. i particularly am interested in Clarissa's rare "religious" encounter with Sally Seton. it clearly means a lot to Clarissa seeing as it still lives in her memory after all these years (going after what Gabby was saying).
Clarissa has been struggling with stereotypes her whole life. Now that she is older, she fears and feels very uneasy about the fact that she will never have any more children. she feels "nun-like" - as if she has no sexuality left in her.
Clarissa clearly has more to her than she lets on to other people. in this section, we are able to sense a deeper struggle, confusion, and even pain that she has been holding in all her life. To this day, she feels silly in some of the things she wears, but nevertheless, she continues to wear them. the fact that she is even having a party implies that she is a public figure that has a reputation to uphold. it will be interesting to see if she is able to keep on living the way she is for much longer, especially now that Peter is back.
I agree with everything that has been said along the lines of Clarissa being liberated by the exciting relationship she explored with Sally and that it was something different compared to her relationships with Peter and Richard. I wanted to focus on what this told us about her character because up until now we had used the adjectives of observant and lady-like to describe her. While being observant may have indicated that she was “looking for meaning and fulfillment” in her life as Laurel said, I feel that this new story about her past has really opened up a new perspective on Clarissa’s character for the reader. Clarissa had an interesting relationship with Sally which was very different and exciting for her, even important enough to be compared to something religious; however now she is kind of stuck in a rut with Richard. She is living separated up in the attic and goes to the flower shop to occupy herself during the day. I think that maybe once she met Sally everything seems kind of boring to her now because she inevitably had to settle down and become the traditional Englishwoman.
As Clarissa was sewing the tear in her dress, she thought of Sally who is now retired at Ealing. She thought about going to visit her if she ever had time for it but then thought “never would she have a moment any more.” This makes me think that Clarissa feels as though there is no room for that excitement in her life now because if she went to visit Sally now she may not be able to come back to her societal life of parties and flower shops.
just checkin in :-)
In these pages, we learn that Clarissa has had experiences with a girl named Sally Seton which she regarded as mostly to do with religion, especially the kiss.
It seems as though Sally was Clarissa's form of "love" when she was still in school, despite the fact that clarissa felt that her feelings between Sally and her were merely feelings that could be shared between two women, and she referred to her feelings for Sally as "disinterested"; furthermore, it seemed as though she felt protective of Sally like an older sister would feel protective of a younger sister.
checking in--Catherine I agree with regards to what you said about Clarissa making the transition from her exhilirating romance to "living separated up in the attic and go[ing] to the flower shop to occupy herself during the day." I can't imagine exchanging the exciting, fulfilling space of life which Clarissa and Sally shared for such a more mundance, impersonal existence, but clearly Clarissa is capable. I would find it hard.
Evidently Clarissa is becoming attracted to women. She feels that she was previously in love with Sally Seton. Sally was not a very proper woman as Mrs. Dalloway rememers it anyway. The way she describes all comes out into a gothic rebel. She had dark hair and smoked cigarettes. She also remembers the times she ran completely naked throuh a hallway at a summer program. It's interesting she thought she was in love with Sally because this is not how Clarissa is at all. Mrs. Dalloway is a very proper woman who wears gloves and dresses in lovely clothing, not like Sally at all. I also don't Clarissa would run through a public hall naked. Why does she believe she loved her?
Is it because she is now realizing her attraction to women and she is the only girl she ever kissed? Or is it because she is so different, Clarissa needs to be free of this 1920's stereotype of proper women?
Checking in…In regards to one of Cooper’s questions I don’t think that Clarissa is discovering that she is attracted to women I just think that she was remembering a fond memory of a friend. I don’t think that there is anything in the text from her current life to suggest that she finds any other women attractive.
I agree with everything that has been said so far. Clarissa has a lonely but financially stable relationship with Richard. Clarissa feels that she lacks the quality of being seductive, desirable, and alluring. Instead she feels innocent and old. "Like a nun withdrawing, or a child exploring a tower... She could not dispel a virginity preserved through childbirth which clung to her like a sheet...She could see what she lacked. It was not beauty; it was not the mind. It was something central which permeated; something warm which broke up surfaces and rippled the cold contact of a man and woman, or of women together." Clarissa sees that Sally has this quality of being sexy, a quality that Clarissa wants, and thus becomes very interested in Sally. "But all that evening she could not take her eyes off Sally. It was an extraordinary beauty of the kind she most admired, dark, large-eyed, with that quality which, since she hadn't got it herself, she always envied." Clarissa finds Sally very different from herself and as a result is very curious and interested in her. Sally introduces Clarissa to a new way of thinking, and opened her eyes to a new way of seeing things. In this way Sally gave Clarissa ambition and excitement. "There they sat, hour after hour, talking in her bedroom at the top of the house, talking about life, how they were to reform the world. They meant to found a society to abolish private property, and actually had a letter written, though not sent out. The ideas were Sally's, of course--but very soon she was just as excited."
Clarissa's relationship with Sally is very emotionally intimate, but not in any way sexual. "It was not like one's feeling for a man. It was completely disinterested, and besides, it had a quality which could only exist between women, between women just grown up." By Clarissa saying "it was not like one's feeling for a man. It was completely disinterested," she implies that one's feeling for a man is more sexual, whereas her relationship with Sally is completely disinterested in sex. Therefore I conclude that Sally and Clarissa's relationship is not sexual, and gives a different feeling than the relationship between a man and a woman. This feeling gives an excitement with a powerful and inducing energy that draws Clarissa and Sally together in a non-sexual way.
Clarissa has come to terms with the fact that she is not the most seductive woman in the world. She recounts fond memories with a friend-Sally- and maybe feels rebellious when she thinks about it. Clarissa obviously has also come to terms with the fact that she is not really involved in a loving relationship with Richard, and does not expect to get anything romantic out of it. Her language changes, though, when she speaks of her feelings for Peter. She talks about their disagreements, and just the fact that they were intimate enough to have disagreements says something about her comfort level with him. To me, it's almost as though her words are softer when she speaks of Peter than when she speaks of Richard. I also agree with what has been said with regard to Clarissa and Sally's relationship. That experience is obviously the most comfortable that Clarissa has ever felt in a relationship. That being said though, I do not think that Clarissa was actually attracted to women.
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As I was reading this section of the book I began to realize that although Mrs. Dalloway has been a high class character who is proper and well educated she has this rebellious side to her which makes her character very intriguing. She also seems a lot more secure and sure of herself than I thought she was at first. She talks of her relationship with Sally and how she really got that certain feeling that she doesn't know if it was love or not but it was something to deep to explain in a way that is very observant. She never thinks i shouldn't have done that or I was so young and childlike. She seems to realize that she learned from all of her crazy experiences and that is a very mature thinking to not regret anything and let it all be apart of you and make you who you are.
I almost got the sense that she is not in love with her husband or if she is she never felt as strongly for him or anyone, except maybe peter, as she did for Sally. Maybe that is why it doesn't really bother her that she sleeps alone and she doesn't really miss the sexuality or intimacy yet she is still lonely.
checking in again....
I actually do think that Clarissa was sexually attracted to Sally. She describes the physical nature of their relationship as much more intense than any she has had sense. Perhaps this attraction was based on the fact that, physically speaking, Sally was what Clarissa wanted to be -- strong and dark. It is not uncommon to love the traits in others that we ourselves are lacking.
checking in...i liked what annabel and others i think about how Richard was a way to be financially, emotionally and socially stable, the perfect man in some senses, and then here we see Clarissa fondly remembering her more eye opening adventurous days with Sally Seton, not with regret really, but more in a content and contemplative manner, reminiscing about those days and wondering what they meant.
Checking in....
I still must indorse Gabby's point on how Clarissa is sexually attracted to Sally and how she is attracted to her because she herself is lacking those rebellious and indifferent traits.
I think that Clarissa's high class status makes it not surprising that she would have this fling with Sally. It kind of goes along with that plot of showing the "secret lives of the rich and famous." Everyone has dirty laundry in their past, and Clarissa having a lesbian affair maybe makes the reader feel more connected with the character. Before this Clarissa had seemed very high class, and that could turn some readers off from being connected with her, whereas when they see something in her past it makes her more "real."
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Since everyone has basically answered the original question I wanted to say that it was interesting how Mrs. Dalloway thought of herself as a nun. I'm not sure if anyone else has said this (I skimmed through the comments). I believe that Mrs. Dalloway is very confused. She is confused socially and sexually, feeling very empty. Perhaps the mending of her dress is symbolic for trying to mend her life...maybe?
I also find it interesting how much different Mrs. Dalloway portrays herself to others than what goes on in her head. For example, on the outside she is the proper, higher class lady who now sleeps by herself, holds parties, shops for gloves and flowers. In this way I still get the idea that she is a tad self-conscious, either that or she is just very uncomfortable her position in society. Otherwise maybe she would have done more about Sally, who knows. She refers to herself as a nun, without much experience in anything.
I completely agree with all that has been said before me: I do think that Clarissa had/has some emotional attachment to Sally, moreso than say Richard or Peter had.
Richard and Peter seem to be logically the right choice for her; what her lifestyle seems to deem acceptable: the men in her life are agreeable, but not affectionate. Sally, on the other hand, is more affectionately described, more tenderly pictured than say her 'relationship' with Richard or Peter.
What struck me right away was the passage on page 31; "She resented it, had a scruple picked up Heaven knows where, or, as she felt, sent by Nature (who is invariably wise); yet she could not resist sometimes yielding to the charm of a woman, not a girl, of a woman cofessing, as to her they often did, some scrape, some folly. And whether it was pity, or their beauty, or that she was older, or some accident - like a faint scent, or a violin next door (so strange is the power of sounds at certain moments), she did undoubtedly then feel what men felt. Only for a moment; but it was enough. It was a sudden revelation, a tinge like a blush ... but the close withdrew; the hard softened. It was over - the moment."
Although I believe that Clarissa feels certain affections toward Sally, I also believe that Clarissa is drawn to certain charms of women - she feels, in certain moments, what men felt. That feeling that someone is opening up to you, for as she said, in that moment of confession. It seems to me that the relationships between Richard and Peter seem logical; they are agreeable, get along fine, match each other in conversation and disposition but never in affection, never in withdrawing emotion or undressing feelings. Perhaps this is why Clarissa feels this way towards Sally, or in certain moments, to women: this unknowing affection women give, this ability to open up that allows Clarissa to open up (if only for a moment), until that moment is hardened, and gone.
It also says that she resented this certain draw to women, but also believes Nature is invariably wise. She also seems to give excuses for why she feels this way (pity, 'some accident'), as if this feeling ashames her, that she shouldn't be feeling this way. But then, the moment ends, and it seems that it is not there forever, which seems to calm Clarissa about these feelings that arise for her. Again, I infer that it is maybe because it is the opening of emotions to her that makes her feel the way 'men do'; that she is so introverted, that she is almost like a 'man', in the sense that she is emotionally unavaliable, although incredibly charming and pleasant in her disposition.
Checking in. I completely agree I think her sexual and physical attraction to Sally was a fascination with her presence, the way she moved, walked, talked, everything. Sally was what she wished she was at that time.
Checking in. If anyone else has notices, Clarissa does a lot a lot of comparing herself to others, all girls. Perhaps this is why she is attracted to them, as said before. She wants to be with someone who can add what she isn't into her life.
Too much late night blogging! However, being one of the last to blog, has it bennefits.
For one of the big points, I definitely now see, that Richard and Clarissa's marriage is more logical than passionate. For one thing they do not have a big 'love/romantic' life ever since Clarissa fell ill with influenza. They are certainly both respectful of each other and I feel that they do both love each other just not in a passionate way (at least anymore).
I was very surprised to read about Clarissa's previous aquaintance, Sally Seton and her relationship with her. Like, many other people said, yes Clarissa did not express it as actually falling in 'traditional' love, yet I would never expect something like this from a girl of such upbringing. Yet, now that I think about it, it makes sense that an event such as that would impact her life, and make her the person that she is today (in the story).
As CJ first said, it is interesting that Clarissa describes the kiss from Sally in a religious way.
While we may not want to delve to soon into the sexuality of Mrs. Dalloway, I think that at this point it is safe to say that she was not passionately involved with Sally, more so that Sally served as an escape from the social confines of her world. In some ways, Sally Seton's world parallels that of Virginia Woolf herself. Being friends with Sally allowed Clarissa to break free from the social restrictions of her class and wealth and allowed her to be a free spirit and a true individual.
Now, I think, Clarissa longs for that freedom again, not necessarily physically but emotionally.
Checking in...
Ok, I know I'm definitely the last one blogging....
Anyway, I agree with what everyone has said. When I first read about Mrs. Dalloway having a relationship with another woman, (whatever kind of relationship, it is something...) it almost didn't surprise me. In many stories, and in real life situations, no one can be perfect all the time. In other words, someone like Mrs. Dalloway, who always appears to be the perfect upper class member of society, is definitely hiding some kind of secret. As many people have said, perhaps she was drawn to Sally because she was different. Perhaps she puts up her "facade" of being such a perfect member of society in order to hide that one thing she did that she knew wasn't exactly proper. Whatever the reason, being in love (or whatever it was, if not quite love, she certainly cared a lot) with a girl, especially such a rebellious girl, was a very different experience for someone like Mrs. Dalloway.
Clarissa doesn't necessarily think of herself as the sensual, sexual partner that most men desire. Clarissa, as much as I hate to say it, believes in love. A feeling so incomprehensible that she has trouble believing she felt it once before her husband, with a young girl. I think often times, we're attracted to people because they're everything we want to be. In this case, Sally had become that person for Clarissa, that clever, witty, always on her feet, unsettled attitude had become an objective of her passion.
It seems as though Clarissa's life is all about remembering, that the things that truly make her feel are those that hold true beauty, as if craving some sort of beauty into herself.
Her and Richard have a very mature relationship, like one that loses its spice after some time, but the flame still burns on. (gosh, i'm just full of cheesy things to say today)
I guess I am the last one for sure...
It seems like everyone above me discussed every single details. However, I think that it is really interesting to talk about the reason why Mrs. Dolloway tells us about her love story. Perhaps someone already talked about this; we have 31 comments above me...
Anyway, I think she is feeling some sort of boredom to her life. She has been sick for long time and also she is in a high social class, which really restrict someone a lot. She talks about this feeling, feeling guilty as being a high social class, when she talks about her daughter's friend. Since she has been having a very boring and restricting life (her marriage too), she felt like escaping from what she is, and perhaps her love between Sally when she was young gives her feeling of freedom.
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