What is Elizabeth, Clarissa and Richard's daughter, like? She is similar to her mother in some ways; can you define her difference? (see pages 131-136, where we see things from her point of view) AND/OR
Assume that the story of Septimus' death happens on pages 143-146, beginning with "But he remembered Bradshaw said," and ending with "and why the devil he did it, Dr. Holmes could not conceive."
Is the author editorializing here--is there some point she is trying to make in this incident, or is it just part of the story of Septimus? If you do think there is a point, what is the point? How subtly is the point made?
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One of the main differences between Clarissa and Elizabeth is that Elizabeth is still young and somewhat naive. She doesnt enjoy or truelly realize others affection and admiration for her whereas Clarissa would revel in it. Elizabeth does see the world in a very similar way to Clarissa but she hasnt had so long to develope it. Also Elizabeths humble youthfullness allows her to enjoy aspects of life in a neighborhood her family never visits that her mother wouldnt consider.
"She had no preferences. Of course, she would not push her way. She inclined to be passive" (132).
"She liked people who were ill...She might own a thousand acres and have people under her. She would go and see them in their cottages...In short, she would like to have a profession" (133).
Elizabeth, perhaps from seeing this in her mother, is different in that she doesn't want to become, or is more adamant about not becoming what society pushes women to be. For example, she wants to have a profession. Elizabeth begins to realize that people are comparing her, but that doesn't stop her from wanting a profession. She is different from her mother in that she isn't so concerned about being judged, which leads me to my next point-
The first passage about having no preferences. Mrs. Dalloway, as an example, like gloves and flowers. She picks the ones she likes out- Elizabeth could care less. Elizabeth is inclined to be passive, unlike Mrs. Dalloway who insists on having parties, and not inviting people she does not like to them. That is a preference.
Elizabeth seems to not care what others think. She wants a profession, while her mother would never dream of something like that. Also, her relationship with Miss Kilman is something interesting. After all, often times people are attracted to those different from them. Perhaps Elizabeth is trying to fit into this high class status that her mother so desires, but needs a strange friend like Miss Kilman, because she can't handle it. This actually makes me wonder- is Clarissa just as on the edge? In other words, is she trying so hard to pull off this high status that she is about to crack and do something stupid as well? It's interesting to think of what could happen...
I agree with what Katherine said.
I think that Elizabeth still has a lot of growing up to do, but this is also a similarity between her and Clarissa. Clarissa we have seen can be somewhat immature at times. This youthful thinking shows that even though Elizabeth is younger they still have some similarities in their ways.
Elizabeth is very different from her mother because she is passive (She let's her mother and Mrs. Kilman boss her around, she goes with Mrs. Kilman to the clothing store and drinks tea with her when really Elizabeth loves to be free.) when her mother loves to have her way (when Clarrisa chose Mr. Dalloway to be her husband and refused Peter Walsh's proposal.)
"She had no preferences. Of course, she would not push her way. She inclined to be passive."
Also Elizabeth is extremely ambitious and wants to work. She likes the idea of working with working people around her. She even considers being a farmer or a doctor because she likes to be around sick people. She has distaste for silly comments and does not care for gloves or nice looking cloths like her mother does. Elizabeth is very to the point and down to earth. She likes her mind to be engaged with work. "mind eternally occupied not with trivial chatterings (comparing women to poplars-which was rather exciting, of course, but very silly), but with thoughts of ships, of business, of law, of administration..... made her quite determined, whatever her mother might say, to become a farmer or a doctor."
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Elizabeth has many differences from her mother. She would much rather be in the country observing nature than go to socials and parties. She is also still young and her mother observes her as naive because she doesn't appreciate the affection she gets from people around her but i think her character is also just very inward and that maybe its not that she doesn't care about that affection or appreciate it but it doesn't really matter to life. I think she is more interested in watching the people and things around her and less centered on presenting herself as someone special, she is who she is and she's ok with that.
Checking in... The suddle point that Virginia Wolf might have made in the pages 143-146 is that the idea that Septimus's reactions to the character's actions around him are dramatized to the point where he feels he has to kill himself, that there is no other option. Septimus has a strong sense that he can't be taken away by Homes or Bradshaw. His sense that he will be unhappy in the circumstances that Bradshaw or Holms will put him in is so profound that he then uses all of his attention and focus to think of ways to kill himself, looking at the knife but thinking it would be too messy, and then at the window. Maybe Wolf is suggesting that madness is just an extremely emotional box that people put themselves in, letting their emotions rule their actions.
I like what Christine said about how Elizabeth doesn’t have as many preferences in life as her mother. I also agree with what has been said about how Elizabeth is more passive and just goes along with all of the more opinionated woman in her life. I think that the part of Elizabeth’s narrative when she boards the omnibus (on page 132) opens up her character.
“Suddenly Elizabeth stepped forward and most competently boarded the omnibus, in front of everybody.” This shows that because she is Clarissa’s daughter she is aware of socially acceptable things and the fact that she does not belong on the omnibus, alone. However she chose to ignore that and go ahead, whereas Clarissa would not have been able to put her self-consciousness behind her.
“And did Elizabeth give one thought to poor Miss Kilman…She was delighted to be free.” This shows that Elizabeth can kind of prioritize her thoughts and let some things go when she has some time to herself. This omnibus ride out into the unknown area of town is a freeing experience because she can put the uptight city behind her. When Clarissa went to lie down she was thinking of Elizabeth and Miss Kilman rather being completely relaxed, like Elizabeth.
Elizabeth seems to be a less energetic, more passive, gentle version of Clarissa. She's not quite as outgoing as her mother is, and she enjoys a quiet life, whereas her mother thrives on throwing parties and entertaining. She seems to be fairly considerate, and like Katherine said, humble as well.
meaning kate... i got confused
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said. Elizabeth is obviously much more of a passive person than Mrs. Dalloway. As Sierra said, she's a lot more concerned with nature and beauty of that than being social and going to parties and things. She seems to go with the flow and although she wants to go explore the world if you will instead of just being like everyone with the parties and all, she does listen to her mother and does want to please her; "But it was later than she thought. Her mother would not like her to be wandering off alone like this"-page 135. I think she wants to please her because she wants her mother's approval. Clarissa believes she's still an immature girl and not proper, probably just because she doesn't enjoy proper parties. Clarissa wants to stay where she is and not go beyond the life of the party so to speak, where as her daughter wants adventure in the great wide somewhere for lack of better words.
Checking in…I agree with Cooper, that Elizabeth is more open about her diving in to the “other side” of life, meaning the quiet explorative side, rather than showy parties. Clarissa keeps her more observant, natural thoughts to herself and never physically explores them in public.
While I agree with Sierra that Elizabeth and Clarissa are different in the fact that they would thrive in different environments, I believe that their sensibility to observe little details - the rush, the joy, the absurdity of life - is a trait they both share.
When Elizabeth is walking past the church, she comments on the churches shapes; "She liked those churches, like shapes of grey paper, breasting the stream of the Strand. It was quite different here from Westminster, she thought, getting off at Chancery Lane. It was so serious; it was so busy." (133) Also, she comments on how she was "delighted to be free." (132). In this regard, I think that Clarissa and Elizabeth are similar in the fact that they take joy in walking around, taking a look at the shapes of things. While I also believe they enjoy absorbing these things, I think it has almost a reverse affect on them. For Clarrisa, it reminds her of Peter Walsh when she was the Park gates; it was almost nastalgic for her, reminding her of her youth. For Elizabeth, it's a fresh slate; the moment is happening in her youth. As Elizabeth is walking and looking at the church, she is taking about how she'd like a profession taking care of the sick. As Clarissa is walking about the park, she is thinking about her youth and the past. I find it interesting how Clarissa is reminded of what has happened and how Elizabeth is thinking about what might/what she would like to happen.
Another comparison I find interesting between Elizabeth and Clarisa is when it is talking about how men easily fall in love with Elizabeth. "... she looked almost beautiful, very stately, very serene. What could she be thinking? Every man fell in love with her, and she was really awfully bored. For it was the beginning." (132).
The parallel I find between Clarissa and her daughter in this passage is how that in class we were talking about Clarissa's desire to be loved, especially when she finds out about Peter's engagement to a younger woman. She wants him to still be enthrawled with her, while Elizabeth has men falling for her and she is utterly bored with them. I find Elizabeth's empathy toward love and Clarissa's yearn for it an interesting conflict, which I also think correlates to Elizabeth's youth and Clarissa's age. Perhaps Clarissa was empathetic of love too when she was younger, but now that she is growing older and in a stagnant, stale relationship, love seems like a whimiscal possibility that she craves for.
.. Checking in even though no one has said anything new ...
"She had no preferences. Of course, she would not push her way. She inclined to be passive."
Elizabeth is much more passive than Clarissa. This could be due in part to her age, or her personality could just be different. Elizabeth is still very young, and in a way still trying to discover what she wants to present herself as. She seems at the moment much less preoccupied than her mother with society and the views of others, and much more interested in actually getting out and doing SOMETHING with her life. her mother views her as naive.
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Woolf editorializes throughout the story of Septimus' death, showing the stupidness of their culture, with Rezia and Septimus against the world, against the doctors, and also shows how death is more casual, and more of a sane choice than the culturally accepted view thereupon. This is managed subtly, but it is through Septimus' satisfaction with his wife, clear thinking paired and calm dissatisfaction when choosing how to kill himself, regretting that he has to fling himself out the window because that is "their idea of tragedy, not his or Rezia's (for she was with him)." He does not want to die, he likes living and the hot sun, yet sees it as inevitable and as a necessary, acceptable choice. - Woolf ends up killing herself, yes? I feel this calm, rational attitude she gives Septimus in the moment of his suicide shows something about what she thinks about the topic.
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One obvious similarity between Clarissa and Elizabeth is their observational skill. Both, when walking down the street, notice things very acutely. They both think in the stream-of-consciousness manner, which might just reflect Woolf's writing style more than the characters' personalities. However, it is an interesting trait shared by Elizabeth and Clarissa. They are both thoughtful, and both seem to measure themselves by the rest of the world -- making judgements about themselves and their society based on observation.
A critical difference between Clarissa and Elizabeth is Clarissa's mania. Her thoughts are very frenetic, jumping from one thread to another. Her feelings are volatile and passionate, and she sees the world as a vibrant and ecclectic place, with herself at the center of it in the sense that everything she observes reflects, in some way, who she is. (for example, what we talked about in class -- her emotional state corresponds to her physical surroundings.) Elizabeth seems to be a bit more steady and level-headed. Her observations are not accompanied by Clarissa's manic interpretation. She thinks rationally -- about her future, about what she likes and dislikes about her family and London, about her place in society. She seems incredibly sane, much more so than Clarissa. She is also less imaginative, which might be a result of Ms. Kilman's influence. As Katherine said, she seems humble and passive. She is less at the whim of her passions. She does not judge based on societal standards or aesthetic beauty, and approaches issues with a practicality that Clarissa does not have.
This critical difference in the manner through which they see the world explains Clarissa's frustration at Elizabeth's character, and Elizabeth's desire to escape her mother's preconceptions about what makes a woman successful. It seems natural that Elizabeth would be more inclined to follow Ms. Kilman's example than that of her mother.
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