This is where the play gets potentially confusing.
1. Why is it necessary for Torvald and Nora to travel south?
2. How do they acquire the money to travel south? Or since this cannot be answered conclusively, what are the possibilities at this point?
3. What does Nora want Torvald not to know, and why does she want him not to know it?
4. Back on p. 997, we hear of how Nora locked everyone out for three weeks while she worked on Christmas decorations. What might she really have been doing?
Try to answer any of these questions, citing a quotation in support of your answer.
OR (once the answers to the above questions are established)
1. How has our sense of Nora changed since the beginning of the play?
2. What is Nora's relationship with Dr. Rank like, and how do you know?
24 comments:
1a. It is necessary for Torvald and Nora to travel south, apparently, because of Torvald's health:
"He mustn't ever know the close call he had. It was to me the doctors came to say his life was in danger- that nothing could save him but a stay in the south."
1b. Our sense of Nora has changed in that we no longer see her as an extravagant, carefree spender. We no longer see her as just using her husband's money for her wants, but we see her actually wanting to work so she can help him out. And also wanting to work to prove herself. There is a whole new, deeper understanding of Nora and how she feels about Torvald, as well as how she carries herself.
3. Nora does not want Torvald to know that she raised/got the funds in order for them to take that trip to the south. She (rightfully) thinks that this will upset the relationship that she now shares with her husband.
While Nora knows differently, Torvald believes himself to be the leading man in this marriage. Nora and his family are dependent on him and he finds comfort and validation (Kim?) in that. If he were to know that perhaps he owes his life to his wife, that would crush his 'masculine pride'.
"But that's the point: he mustn't know! My Lord, can't you understand? He mustn't ever know the close call he had." (Pg 1001)
MRS. LINDE: And you've never confided in your husband since?
NORA: For Heaven's sake, no! Are you serious? He's so strict on that subject. Besides - Torvald, with all his masculine pride - how painfully humiliating for him if he ever found out that he was in debt to me. That would just ruin our relationship. Our beautiful, happy home would never be the same.
(Pg 1002)
Nora was said to be working on Christmas decorations, but it becomes evident that she could have been copying pages to earn money, as she said she did a lot of to pay for Torvald's necessary vacation to the south.
Our sense of Nora has changed definitely since the beginning of the play. She was first introduced as seemingly a silly girl without a care in the world, but now we are beginning to see the depth to it. It almost seems as if there has to be a reason for her silliness and innocence, as if she feels inferior to others, such as her husband. She seems to enjoy feeling as good as others, such as with her "big secret"
"And then I found other ways of making money. Last winter I was lucky enough to get a lot of copying to do. I locked myself in and sat writing every evening till late in the night. Ah, I was tired so often, dead tired. But still it was wonderful fun, sitting and working like that, earning money. It was almost like being a man." (p.1002)
If I were to guess what Nora did to raise the money, I would think that it was something indecent or something that her husband would not appreciate. For example, Mrs. Linde asks, "Now listen here, Nora- you haven't done something iniscreet?" and Nora replies, "Is it indiscreet to save your husband's life?" (pg 1001)
She didn't answer the question directly, and she seems to be hinting the entire time that she did something only a woman could do. This makes me think she could have gotten the money in a way that would make her husband incredibly angry, but it was her only way of saving him, and she feels that she's done the right thing.
She's changed since the beginning of the book because now it's not so easy to look at her as such a selfish, self- indulgent person. However, she is a bit self- indulgent in the sense that she seems to just love bathing in the idea that she accomplished something on her own. It seems that in a way, she's proud of what she's done. Maybe she likes the idea that she broke some rules as well or did something that's not societally acceptable.
I agree with both CJ and Julie about what Nora was doing to raise the money for their trip south. At first I got the same impression as CJ about what Nora may be implying or suggesting to Kristine, but then she continued on and gave a very concrete answer to what she had been doing about the copying. "Whoever said I borrowed the money? I could have gotten it in other ways. [throwing herself back on the sofa.]"(pg 1001) "And then I found other ways of making money. Last winter I was lucky enough to get a lot of copying to do." (pg 1002) I can't decide if maybe the copying was just a cover or if maybe she did both things because she needed to raise a lot of money.
I also agree with what has been said about the changes in Nora. With her friend she comes across as a much stronger woman with a bit more sense, rather than just some flimsy girl who goes along with whatever her husband wants. She was still upset with the fact that she couldn't spend her entire allowance on expensive clothes, but she was able to feel pride in her self control. What she did for her husband, raising the money to "cure" him seems much more noble than allowing him to control her and degrade her with pet names.
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and I like this conversation :)
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I agree completely with Christine and I could not possibly add more to what she has already had to say.
Torvald and Nora need to travel South due to the condition in which Torvald's health is in.
"... He musn't ever konw the close call he had. It was to me the doctors came to say his life was in danger - that nothing could save him but a stay in the South."
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i agree with what cj said about Nora becoming less self-absorbed. in the beginning, she seemed a little ditzy without a care in the world. it was clear (earlier) that she loved money and expensive things, which added to her self-interest. Now, however, we can see that she is not blind to the realities around her. I feel like this experience of breaking out of the normal and keeping secrets from her husband has made her grow up. she learns hoe to take on responsibility and become her own person. she has proved us wrong about her being "dependent" on her husband.
A quote that stuck out to me was when she was talking to her children after they come in from playing outside with their nurse. She clearly loves them and admires their cute, little innocence: "no dogs ever bite little, lovely doll babies."
Im not sure that this answers the blog at all, but i found her relationship to the kids interesting. While I'm not quite sure what it is yet, i got a vibe from her tone of words when talking to them. perhaps she talks to them like her husband talks to her. she might relate to them because her husband belittles her just the same as them. she might also just find them beautiful. Nora clearly likes things that are pretty, and because she describes them as little "dolls," they might just be her little beautiful toys. they are the expensive clothes she couldn't buy when she was saving her money. Basically I'm just thinking out loud right now so if this all sounds dumb..... thats fine.
4. Nora was probably doing copying or some other odd job to raise money.
"NORA: It wasn't at all dull for me.
HELMER: But the outcome was pretty sorry, Nora."
We hear later that Nora did odd jobs to raise money for Torvald's trip down South, so she would lock herself in rooms and do things like copying or stitching. If it was not "dull" for Nora, that means that she was busy. Though if she were busy with christmas decorations then the outcome would not have been pretty sorry, it would have come out well. In conclusion, Nora was too busy with raising money and trying to not let Torvald see her do it that she was not able to concentrate on making the decorations look nice.
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Although our sense of Nora is shifting, as she is seeming more complex and powerful, she's as goofy and self-indulgent as ever. CJ I agree that "she seems to just love bathing in the idea that she accomplished something on her own." I give her respect for taking things into her own hands so much and saving the man she loves, but the fact that she would never let him know because it would "hurt his masculine pride" is consistently disturbing.
Though i think it is pretty clear that the family went south for Torvald's health, Nora does mention that the doctors confided this in her and it was her who raised the money and it was she who convinced Torvald to let them all go. It sounded as though maybe Torvald was not entirely aware that they were going south for his health. She mentions her own "condition" and wanting to be like the other young wives and go off traveling.
"Didn't I try strategy then! I began talking about how lovely it would be for me to travel abroad like all the other young wide; i begged and I cried; I told him please to remember my condition, to be kind and indulge me."
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The possibilities of how Nora acquired the money are:
1. She borrowed it, "Because you couldn't have borrowed it." "No? Why not?"
2. She worked as a copier, copying documents. "But still it was wonderful fun, sitting and working like that, earning money."
3. She borrowed it from Mr. Krogstad. "Nora: (stepping toward him, tense, her voice in a whisper.) You? what is it? Why do you want to speak with my husband?"
Torvald and Nora traveled south because of Torvald's health:
Doctors confided in Nora: "....the doctors came to say his life was in danger-that nothing could save him but a stay in the south."
Nora knew that they had to go south, basically in order to save his life, but at the same time, she didn't want him to know what a dire situation it was.
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1. The entire family was forced to go south because of Torvald's health, but it appears to me that Torvald did not know that this was the reason they were going south. He thought they were vacationing to appease his wife's frivolous desires. I don't understand why she can't be honest with him about needing to go south for his health, unless its his pride that would not permit him to do so.
"He mustn't ever know the close call he had. It was to me the doctors came to say his life was in danger -- that nothing could save him but a stay in the south. Didn't I try strategy then! ... he said I was frivolous, and it was his duty as man of the house not to indulge me in whims and fancies..."
It is my impression that Nora slept with Krogstad in order to establish a loan that she might possibly pay in the future. In other words, she is still indebted to Krogstad, but he reduced the financial burden on the terms that she sleep with him. Clearly, Nora does not want her husband to find out what she did in order to save him. It would wound his pride and his sense of masculinity. It doesn't really make sense that Nora would find herself in such a position. If she and the doctors had been honest with Torvald about the severity of his illness, the family might have faced the issue together, without Nora having to do something "indiscreet to save [her] husband's life."
Still kind of ambiguous at this point...
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ditto to laurel! Nora is definitely changing and showing that she isn't just some ditz. She should be taken seriously...I mean she hid to her overbearing and shadowing husband that she raised all this money. Obviously Nora is smart.
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