The tarentella, as depicted in a ballet called Napoli, choreographed by Bournonville, performed by the New York City Ballet.
Please respond to one of the following:
1. How do you feel about Krogstad at this point in the play?
2. Helmer's theory is that "almost everyone who goes bad early in life has a mother who's a chronic liar" (1014). what do you think of this theory? What does Nora think of it, and how can we tell?
3. Torvald's idea for a costume/act for Nora for the party is for her to go as a "Neapolitan peasant girl and dance the tarentella." Comment.
4. Mrs. Linde and Nora discuss Dr. Rank (1016-1017). What do we learn from this discussion?
27 comments:
Torvald could want Nora to wear the costume for a variety of reasons. 1, it could simply be that it would be funny and entertaining to guests. Though on the other hand having Nora dress up is a little bit demeaning in a sense. Torvald has such a weird control over her, yet he has no control. She lied to him, but lied to him for his own good. She does a lot for him, and that shows that he has control, but he cannot control her actions.
2. Helmer's theory that "almost everyone who goes bad early in life has a mother who's a chronic liar" does not seem particularly valid. It's true that if the atmosphere in a home is full of deceit and dishonesty, and the lying is to cover up immoral issues, then that can't be good for a child. To say that everyone who goes bad does so because they had a chronic liar for a mother, though, seems to be a gross overstatement.
The theory shakes Nora, although she does not want to believe it. We know because when he's talking about it, she moves away from him, not being able to look at him. After he leaves she says, "[softly, after a silence.] Oh, really! it isn't so. It's impossible. It must be impossible."
i think that Torvald's idea for Nora's costume goes in hand-in-hand with what we talked about during the first blog. it re-enhances the idea that he constantly feels superior to his wife. even though we know now that Nora has a secret that goes against what Torvald knows. By making her a peasant girl, he is deliberately degrading her for his own purposes. its almost creepy how she goes along with whatever he says. i really just want to see her break out and think for herself, but i doubt thats gonna happen.
I agree with Laurel in that Torvald's statement is a large generalization about all households and "bad people". I agree that most people would not benefit from a mother who lies a lot; however I wouldn't go as far as he did in saying that "everyone who goes bad in early in life has a mother who's a chronic liar."
I think that Nora is trying to convince herself that the statement is false because she does not want to corrupt her children and create a negative environment in her house. However, she does seem unsure because she entertains the idea for a bit before convincing herself again that it isn't true. "[Pale with terror]. Hurt my children-! Poison my home? [A moment's pause; then she tosses her head.] That's not true. Never. Never in all the world."
The tossing of her head is when Nora decides to put the idea from her mind because there is no way that her lies could possibly have an effect on her home or children. I think that this is a bit of foreshadowing of what her lies will bring in the rest of the play.
4. We learn from Nora and Miss Linde's discussion that Dr. Rank has tuberculosis of the spine, apparently because he has always been sick due to the fact that his father "kept mistresses and so on." We learn, more than before, of his relationship with the family. He is Torvald's best friend from childhood and a great friend of Nora's as well. He is just like family. We also learn that he likes listening to the things Nora tells him and cannot tell Torvald. "For a long time he'd almost be jealous if I even mentioned any of my old friends back at home. So of course I dropped that. But with Dr. Rank I talk a lot about such things, because he likes hearing about them."
So I'm wondering if Dr. Rank will be of more importance later, considering his relationship with Nora is very open and trusting. And he obviously knows some things, although maybe little, that Torvald does not.
4. From the discussion we learn that Dr. Rank lies quite frequently to possibly flatter people.
"But tell me-- is he quite sincere? I mean, doesn't he rather enjoy flattering people?" (Pg 1016).
Mrs. Linde said this because Dr. Rank said to her that "he had often heard (her) name in the house," but to Mrs. Linde's surprise Helmer did not even know who she was.
It is also learned that Dr. Rank was Torvald's best friend from childhood, is quite rich from an inheritance, is not married or has children, and comes to the house every day. Maybe Dr. Rank wanted an excuse to come to the house everyday and so he lied about his best friend's health.
I agree with Laurel and Catherine's comments about Helmer's theory, but id go even further to say that Nora is practically going insane. Especially while she is alone waiting for someone to help with her costumes, she seems even more harried than before. She had been so sure of herself until Krogstad came to visit and even after she held her own, but it seems her husbands commentary drove her over the edge: she couldn't stand the thought of everything she had done to protect her family in the end being a huge downfall.
"What nonsense! He wont do anything serious. Nothing terrible could happen. It's impossible."
Shes practically paranoid, and maybe for good reason but still, her head is a bit off kilter
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I feel that Krogstad is a rather suspicious character, in that he appears so little in the play, and everytime he appears it's about Nora's forgery of the papers and about bank issues - it seems as though their relationship (nora and krogstad's) will pick up somewhere further along in the plot, but I'm not too sure.
I'm actually slightly confused about something - on p. 1013, Nora says, "But tell me, was it really such a crime that this Krogstad committed?" But wasn't it Nora who forged the papers? Is Krogstad covering for her or something?
I agree with Todd in that there may be more behind the reason Torvald wants Nora to wear such a costume. Yes, it may be perfect for his "little squirrel", but I agree with Todd in that he has so much control over Nora. She is almost like his trophy wife, in a way. It's like he likes how funny she is, but doesn't exactly love her the way he should. It's not as if he doesn't want to love her or is heartless, it's just that he loves having her in his life, and seems to need that.
2. Helmer's "almost everyone who goes bad early in life has a mother who's a chronic liar" seems to bother and perhaps rattle Nora a bit, but it does not seem true. It even makes her feel a bit insecure as a parent: "It's impossible". Nora raised her kids with a lot of love in an atmosphere that was genuinely caring, however it does not seem that a person who has gone bad had a lying mother. As Laurel mentioned, upbringing is extremely important, but ultimately we are what we are, and lying mothers have nothing to do with it.
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checking in...I like Kate's comment and I think that there is definitely something behind Krogstad. He seems to shake things up a bit from Nora and Torvald having the perfect life and Nora doing anything to please her husband.
1. I feel that Krogstad will do anything to keep his job. He is a very unclear character. He seems to have no morals. He has obviously been in trouble and it seems that he did not do it for good reasons like Nora did. He will bring Nora down if she doesn't get her husband to let him keep his position. This shows a strong determination which has made him lose sight of the right thing to do.
"And still this is Krogstad's been going home year in, year out, poisoning his own children with lies and pretense; thats why i call him morally lost."
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3. Torvald's choice of a "simple peasant" costume for Nora is interesting, and says a lot about their relationship.
It reinforces the idea of his superiority, depicting her as socially and intellectually inferior. He is attracted to her child-like ways and her simple charm, which are highlighted by this costume choice.
The fact that he wants her to dance is showing her off. He is clearly proud of her, wanting to showcase her talent. However it is a purely aesthetic pride. She is, in effect, his trophy wife. He can dote on her and take care of her, as long as she reinforces his masculinity by remaining submissive and attractive.
Torvald wants Nora to wear a costume which will illustrate those qualities that he finds most appealing.
I think he truly loves her, on his own terms. Much of what he says is surprisingly condescending, and I find myself wavering between the opinion that he is a good husband because he is attentive emotionally and physically, and the opinion that theirs is a claustrophobic relationship because of the child-like, inferior way in which he treats her.
The costume was an interesting detail!
In regards to Torvald wanting Nora to dress like a cute little Russian dancer, I think it's almost like he's dressing a little girl. As we've discussed with how Nora treats her children, we said how she seems to act like a child herself with her wild-like naivity that a young girl would exhibit. I think Torvald wanting her to dress up like a Russian dancer mimics this mentality that Nora seems to have, especially about her marriage and relationship with her husband. He acts almost like her father, in the fact that he provides for her and gives her spending money and treats her like a frivolous plaything and even has a cute, demeaning pet name as 'squirrel', like she's a domesticated, cute, amusing animal.
I think Nora also lets this occur because of having 'saved' him, in some heroic attempt to almost tell herself that she is a good person, and be validated (Mike?) in her efforts to make her marraige work. In that regard, she seems grown up, but is also underminded by the fact that she used sneaky means to pay the debt back and the fact that she seems to think the truth will shatter the delicacy of their family.
And .. I completely agree with Gabi.
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I'd like to look some more on what Rosie said about how Helmer's theory rattles Nora. It riles her up. She's angered by the comment because she's always been hiding behind her own falsehood of being a good caring parent to her children. Because her children aren't really truly connected with, she assumes thats she's a terrible parent and a complete chronic liar. She may be a, but that may not necessarily effect her kids so much. In fact, probably not. She has to believe what Helmer is saying that and that's where in lies the problem with Nora. She must please him.
It has not much to do with the kids. The kids can recover from the mother being a liar.
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When Mrs. Linde and Nora discuss Dr. Rank, Mrs. Linde expresses her dislike for him and suspicions about him, while Nora defends him and says that he is a dear friend and very close to both her husband and she. "Now listen, Nora; in many ways you're still like a child. I'm a good deal older than you, with a little more experience. I'll tell you something: you ought to put an end to all this with Dr. Rank." pg. 1017 It is also revealed that he had maybe not the easiest of upbringings, tuberculosis of the spine, and his mother was his father's mistress. This does not change Mrs. Linde's opinion of him however.
Wow, great discussion so far everyone, a lot of great points have been touched on.
Gabi, I definitely agree with your point about Torvald wanting to kind of showcase Nora and show her off to their neighbors. At times, their relationship seems to be that of a stage mom and a trophy wife.
And Kim, good point as well, in some ways Nora does like the attention of being treated like this (the same way she does with the children). This feeling may be mixed with the fact that Nora feels that she owes her husband this. Since revealing that she is the one who saved him would be too great of an embarrassment for Torvald, Nora puts up with his frivilous and (sometimes) demeaning wants.
I do feel that Nora has such love for he husband and for the relationship that they share, but sometimes it is nice to be vindicated (Kim?) and perhaps as awful as it would be in Nora's eyes to tell Torvald the truth, it may be one of those necessary evils which are all too common in life.
I'd say, in principle, will truth really shatter the delicateness of this relationship?
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